No audio waveform when sequence is a clip? (choir)

[TomH]

Testing how I might build up a virtual choir (many individual videos in a grid view). Used the Scale FX on 4 video tracks to create a quad-split in sequence 1 with 1 track of audio reference. Copied Sequence 1 onto Sequence 2 to start up a quad split of 4 sequence clips but discovered the audio of sequence 1 does not show up in an audio track of sequence 2. I was counting on seeing the waveform to align other sequences with it.

If this is working as designed, I bought the wrong product. What other way could I build up my virtual choir in VideoPad and still have visibility of and control over the audio? 

[borate]

Yes, when copying SEQ 1 to another sequence it is normal for audio and effects not to display, but they're there.

Check out the SPLIT-SCREEN effect, where each stacked track is assigned to fit perfectly into a grid.  See  http://nch.invisionzone.com/topic/30975-virtual-choirdiana/

All audio tracks will be heard and seen.  Several at a time can be soloed, to sync them.  With audio complete, click the bin's SEQUENCE tab, right click on the sequence and SAVE SEQUENCE AUDIO AS NEW FILE.  If desired, this can be a replacement for all the (unlinked) audio tracks, will simplify the sequence display and may lessen the processing load a bit.

 A high # of tracks can run VP out of usable memory (not RAM) during export, resulting in freezing or missing content.  A lower resolution export often succeeds.  But there shouldn't be an issue with a simple quad split. In genera, rely mainly upon the X/Y BASE positioning options in the split-screen dialog.  And stick with a single sequence.

When editing, regularly SAVE PROJECT AS, giving it a unique # or name.  This avoids overwriting earlier saves.  Don't use SAVE PROJECT, as that will overwrite.  If you make an editing mistake, press <ctrl-Z> to undo step-by-step.  Same as EDIT | UNDO.    <ctrl-Y> will REdo.

Use the latest VP version.

[Nationalsolo]

 

".....If this is working as designed, I bought the wrong product. What other way could I build up my virtual choir in VideoPad and still have visibility of and control over the audio?  ,,,,,"

Have you looked at the Split Screen effect.?  This can handle up to 25 clips. (5 x 5 layout) with each clip on a separate track. However, with so many tracks running this may not preview well but up to 9 it should have no problems.

The individual audio tracks are all visible so synchronization is possible.

As you have found using Sequences no audio waveform is present when a sequence is loaded back to the timeline (although the audio is present..

With Split screen sizing and spacing is automatic but controls are available within the effect window to tweak the box display. Test it out with 4 or 6 clips and see what you think.

Have a read through this post..   http://nch.invisionzone.com/topic/31417-no-video-in-exported-file/?tab=comments#comment-83084

Nat

[TomH]

Thanks for the quick replies while I was sleeping. I had already discovered the 30975-virtual-choirdiana/ discussion and recognised I would need to give it a thorough read. I'm uncertain that my hardware is up to the task whichever way I do it and the 31417-no-video-in-exported-file/?tab=comments#comment-83084 reference corresponds to what I assumed would be my workaround. I do a similar process with audio using Audacity - doing all the basses in one mix, tenors in another ...; export each to WAV and then mix the sub-mixes.

Quote

A high # of tracks can run VP out of usable memory (not RAM) during export, resulting in freezing or missing content.

 I've a mid-grade laptop with outboard monitor, i5 processor, 8GB RAM. VP certainly does not seem to be a RAM hog, unlike that other Aussie product that ate up 2GB just to get started. My little trial of a 4-way sequence as a clip in another sequence scared me because of the length of time it took for the preview cache to complete - much slower than real time. And there was only one audio track. I'm wondering if I should resize all the source media to dimensions just above the size they will be when rendered, e.g., 180H x 320W, BEFORE bringing them into VP.

[borate]

Various approaches can do the job and, as noted, there should be no problem with a quad-split.

You might start with the main track and stack one other above it.  Sync and mix them, then mute the 2nd track.

Add track three, sync and mix it, mute it and so on.  Balance, gain, EQ, etc. can be adjusted for each track.  Then unmute all and make final mix adjustments.

Save the sequence audio as a new file, as instructed above, for a back up.  After saving the project with a unique # or name, the audio tracks optionally can be replaced with the mix.

Then use SPLIT SCREEN to assign video tracks to quadrants A, B, C and D.

If resolutions are high, with big file sizes, check out Proxy Editing.  This can be worth the conversion time, especially on low-powered systems.  Essentially that would be pre-sizing, per your thought, but without the need for substitution of the originals at export.

With the method described, just now created a twelve-second 2 x 2 grid quad-split on a low-end I3 PC with a conventional hard drive.

Source resolutions varied:  1024 x 576,   720 x 480,   634 x 352 and 1280 x 720;  formats were AVI and WMV.

Export at 1280 x 720 took thirty-seconds and looked great.

[Nationalsolo]

Hi

A  3x3  or 4 x4  grid (split screen) should be possible even on a slower PC (like mine). I have suggested to NCH that a higher number of boxes,  7x or 8x ....even up to 10 x 10 might be a useful enhancement. The reply was that the number of tracks needed with attendant effects  would make things extremely complicated and would adversely affect the way the program ran. One thing that came out of the discussion was that the more boxes used the smaller the clips were and consequently low resolution clips reduced sized at the outset would be a partial answer to previewing speed .

However, using small numbers of clips set vertically at one end and then exported as a new video would mean large multiscreen projects could be created by loading those new videos back and positioning them as my old post explained. Instead of using 25 clips for a 5x5 layout it would only need 5 clips.

Big professional systems can use numerous clips at a time..as here.(81 clips ..on a 10 x 10 layout) .

Nat

[borate]

And there may be considerable improvement when VP is released in a 64-bit version.

[TomH]

12 hours ago, TomH said:

I'm wondering if I should resize all the source media to dimensions just above the size they will be when rendered, e.g., 180H x 320W, BEFORE bringing them into VP.

I ran a small 2x2 split-screen comparison test which had unexpected outcomes. Test 1 used 4 clips 1280x720. The same clips were initially converted one at a time from the sequence editor to 640x320 for Test 2. Both Tests exported to 1280x720. I monitored the export duration and computer activity.

        			Test 1		Test 2
Clips				1280x720	640x360
Duration			1:45		1:15	faster export
CPU 				high		high
Memory				255MB		285MB	unexpected
Disk				low 		low
GPU 				very low	very low	only 3D (?)
MP4 file			40MB		20MB	unexpected

I could not detect any difference in the picture quality. Frame rate was ~20 for #1, ~22 for #2. I thought I had the same encoder settings but it would seem that internal smarts are deciding something that is non-obvious, based on the quality of the sources.

The shorter export time must be related in part to the smaller file size but that should account for only a few seconds out of the difference of 30. So, while I could not readily measure the Preview writing time, the difference in export duration might be indicating that there is a 25-30% shortening of the preview time by rendering files that have been presized to match (approximate?) their window in the final video. Borate, your Proxy Editing corroborates the idea that lowering resolution and file size reduces the load on the hardware.

As to a 64-bit version, I can't wait for it!

[Nationalsolo]

Hi TomH

Are you looking at using  split screen and if so, how many clips do you want to incorporate?

I am currently in the process of trying out a 10 x 10 matrix (using my idea above) just as an experiment but I am not reducing the size of the clips for this, they are all 1080 mp4. This will not be using split screen, just the clips being scaled and positioned.

Nat

[TomH]

My immediate project will be only around 8 or so singers overlaid on a video image with scrolling lyrics. Longer term, 16-48 singers.

Tom

[Nationalsolo]

HI

That could be relatively straightforward using the Split screen effect. However a  2 x 4 or 4 x 2 layout would fill the frame, leaving no space to see the background image, unless the clips are made smaller using the incorporated split screen scale  option    By mixing the layouts for each track (e.g. using a 5 x 3 layout) the individual boxes could be mixed in a similar way to this...

Obviously you would attempt to arrange them so your lyrics are visible. (Use dual displays to make this easier)

Unless the clips are very big (e.g. 4K) I don't think you would need to initially reduce them if you are only working with 8 or so.

An alternative  would be to  Scale and Position  each clip individually on the background image. The program would need to do more work during preview but this approach gives more scope with the layout and would work best with your initial smaller number of clips. The 16 - 48 clips project would need a different approach IMHO. But come back when you get to this stage if you have problems

Nat

 

 

[TomH]

Thanks for the encouragement, Nat. I'm on the same wavelength. Plan to use a split screen grid to lay out the singers in a U, bottom based. To ensure the audio waveforms are visible, I will normalise and export each clip, cropping as needed, and bring those revised clips into the master project. 

I've discovered I have to scale the lyrics text to fit within the U as, almost regardless of font size, the system wants to fill the screen.

[Nationalsolo]

Hi Tom

Is this the style of thing you are after?

This is an  result using a 5 x 5 (VP maximum) split screen with a scaled vertically scrolling text in the middle of the "U"

The text doesn't overwrite the clips if scaled correctly.

You may already do so but it's a good idea to set up dual previews  in Options/Display

This example uses 10 Tracks - background image on Track1, 8 singers and the text on top. With 16 - 48 singers VP might struggle and the project might require some adaptation.

Nat

[TomH]

Yes, that's a layout similar to what I am doing, Nat. I have started with the split-screen grid at 5x4, planning to fill the bottom row and progress up the side columns.

I found that Crop then Split adversely affects the size of the box but Scale then Split works ok.