COMPARE FM RADIO BROADCAST TO ONLINE STREAM

[ED7985]

12/25/2007 9:50:36 AM

 

I am wondering if anyone has heard a benchmark comparison.

 

In my case I could record with my laptop from an FM radio.

 

The same station is online, and streams at 48 kbps in mp3 or asf (I can choose).

 

I once heard/read that FM quality is @ 28 kbps.

 

Is anyone a sound engineer or know one?

 

I am very interested in trying to get a comparison. What stream quality would be better than FM broadcast?

 

Where can I go to find out or ask?

 

Thanks, Ed

 

It is a very interesting topic I do not ever see anyone discussing!!!!

[musikone]

12/25/2007 9:50:36 AM

 

I am wondering if anyone has heard a benchmark comparison.

 

In my case I could record with my laptop from an FM radio.

 

The same station is online, and streams at 48 kbps in mp3 or asf (I can choose).

 

I once heard/read that FM quality is @ 28 kbps.

 

Is anyone a sound engineer or know one?

 

I am very interested in trying to get a comparison. What stream quality would be better than FM broadcast?

 

Where can I go to find out or ask?

 

Thanks, Ed

 

It is a very interesting topic I do not ever see anyone discussing!!!!

===================================================

You do not ever see anyone discussing this because apparently NO ONE (except myself, of course), either here or anywhere else, understands these matters. So let me try to answer you.

 

First of all, you have been mislead (you say that you once "heard/read") that FM quality is @ 28 kbps. This is very, very wrong! If you record an FM broadcast _via the airwaves_, the result will be a computer sound file (in the .wav format, using a Windows PC) at over 1000 kbps (the exact number is not important for purposes of this discussion), which is a far, far, far cry from 28 kbps! In other words, an FM broadcast is the standard for quality comparison, and things go downhill from this point. Very far downhill, in fact.

 

I have looked at very many internet streaming radio stations, searching for those who are streaming at a high enough bit rate to have a serious claim to a quality that is appropriate for classical music. What is commonly (and erroneously) called "cd quality" for music is a bit rate of 128 kbps, even though the quality of a file on a CD is the same as broadcast FM quality: over 1000 kbps. In my opinion, and that of others who know compressed-digital-sound quality when they hear it (or _don't_ hear it is more appropriate :-)), a bit rate of at least 160 kbps is the _minimum_ truly acceptable quality for classical music.

 

So guess what? I have found exactly ONE streaming radio station which is currently streaming at 160 kbps or greater. This is station KAMU at Texas A&M university, if anyone here is interested. This station, which you can listen to at http://kamu.publicbroadcasting.net/streaming.html, streams at 176 kbps or thereabouts. There a few (very few) stations which stream at 128 kbps or greater (one of my favorites is station KUAT at the University of Arizona in Tucson), one at 112 kbps (station WGBH in Boston), a few at 96 kbps (the most notable example here is the commercial station WQXR in New York) and station KUSC at the University of Southern California in Los Angeles, which has a host of problems relating to its music programming, self-hyping, etc.

 

Most online radio stations stream at something like 32 kbps or perhaps at 64 kbps, which is _unsatisfactory_ for classical music broadcasting. I have written them off the map, as not being serious about this business. They are using such a low quality (high degree of compression, which you obviously do not understand from your post here) for economic reasons. That is, it is cheaper for them and, since they don't feel that it is a _necessity_ to stream at a high-quality rate and that listeners will not appreciate the difference (they are right about this, since the vast majority of listeners have a "tin ear"), why should they spend their money to put out a high-quality signal?

 

So briefly in summary, there is NO streaming quality that even approaches that of an FM signal. NONE. Secondly, there are very, very, very few stations that even stream at 128 kpbs, which I consider to be an "acceptable" quality, but certainly not one to brag about.

 

And finally, something that you are also unaware of is the matter of _sampling rate_, which is critical in the conversion of an analog signal to a digital computer file. The industry standard for this sampling rate is 44.1 khz, and almost every online radio station that is streaming classical music uses this sampling rate. A notable exception is station KUSC in Los Angeles, which streams with a sampling rate of 32 khz (and a bit rate of 96 kbps). They are being extra cheap with this sub-par sampling rate and it seriously affects the quality of their musical stream. This is _inexcusable_.

 

Even worse, station KXPR in Sacramento, California uses a sampling rate of only 22 khz (along with a bit rate of 96 kbps), which does not even come close to acceptability for high-quality classical music streaming. Yet they claim that they are streaming at "near-CD" quality!! From my personal contact with these folks, they don't even know what they are doing wrong!! And this in the technological Wonderland of the capitol of the state of California. Incredible!

 

Well, that is enough for now. Perhaps you are getting the picture :-). Unlike myself, you may wish to retire in disgust. But I am on a mission and will pursue it to the bitter end.

 

 

Musikone

(more than you bargained for, no doubt)

[ED7985]

12/25/2007 9:50:36 AM

 

I am wondering if anyone has heard a benchmark comparison.

 

In my case I could record with my laptop from an FM radio.

 

The same station is online, and streams at 48 kbps in mp3 or asf (I can choose).

 

I once heard/read that FM quality is @ 28 kbps.

 

Is anyone a sound engineer or know one?

 

I am very interested in trying to get a comparison. What stream quality would be better than FM broadcast?

 

Where can I go to find out or ask?

 

Thanks, Ed

 

It is a very interesting topic I do not ever see anyone discussing!!!!

===================================================

You do not ever see anyone discussing this because apparently NO ONE (except myself, of course), either here or anywhere else, understands these matters. So let me try to answer you.

 

First of all, you have been mislead (you say that you once "heard/read") that FM quality is @ 28 kbps. This is very, very wrong! If you record an FM broadcast _via the airwaves_, the result will be a computer sound file (in the .wav format, using a Windows PC) at over 1000 kbps (the exact number is not important for purposes of this discussion), which is a far, far, far cry from 28 kbps! In other words, an FM broadcast is the standard for quality comparison, and things go downhill from this point. Very far downhill, in fact.

 

I have looked at very many internet streaming radio stations, searching for those who are streaming at a high enough bit rate to have a serious claim to a quality that is appropriate for classical music. What is commonly (and erroneously) called "cd quality" for music is a bit rate of 128 kbps, even though the quality of a file on a CD is the same as broadcast FM quality: over 1000 kbps. In my opinion, and that of others who know compressed-digital-sound quality when they hear it (or _don't_ hear it is more appropriate :-)), a bit rate of at least 160 kbps is the _minimum_ truly acceptable quality for classical music.

 

So guess what? I have found exactly ONE streaming radio station which is currently streaming at 160 kbps or greater. This is station KAMU at Texas A&M university, if anyone here is interested. This station, which you can listen to at http://kamu.publicbroadcasting.net/streaming.html, streams at 176 kbps or thereabouts. There a few (very few) stations which stream at 128 kbps or greater (one of my favorites is station KUAT at the University of Arizona in Tucson), one at 112 kbps (station WGBH in Boston), a few at 96 kbps (the most notable example here is the commercial station WQXR in New York) and station KUSC at the University of Southern California in Los Angeles, which has a host of problems relating to its music programming, self-hyping, etc.

 

Most online radio stations stream at something like 32 kbps or perhaps at 64 kbps, which is _unsatisfactory_ for classical music broadcasting. I have written them off the map, as not being serious about this business. They are using such a low quality (high degree of compression, which you obviously do not understand from your post here) for economic reasons. That is, it is cheaper for them and, since they don't feel that it is a _necessity_ to stream at a high-quality rate and that listeners will not appreciate the difference (they are right about this, since the vast majority of listeners have a "tin ear"), why should they spend their money to put out a high-quality signal?

 

So briefly in summary, there is NO streaming quality that even approaches that of an FM signal. NONE. Secondly, there are very, very, very few stations that even stream at 128 kpbs, which I consider to be an "acceptable" quality, but certainly not one to brag about.

 

And finally, something that you are also unaware of is the matter of _sampling rate_, which is critical in the conversion of an analog signal to a digital computer file. The industry standard for this sampling rate is 44.1 khz, and almost every online radio station that is streaming classical music uses this sampling rate. A notable exception is station KUSC in Los Angeles, which streams with a sampling rate of 32 khz (and a bit rate of 96 kbps). They are being extra cheap with this sub-par sampling rate and it seriously affects the quality of their musical stream. This is _inexcusable_.

 

Even worse, station KXPR in Sacramento, California uses a sampling rate of only 22 khz (along with a bit rate of 96 kbps), which does not even come close to acceptability for high-quality classical music streaming. Yet they claim that they are streaming at "near-CD" quality!! From my personal contact with these folks, they don't even know what they are doing wrong!! And this in the technological Wonderland of the capitol of the state of California. Incredible!

 

Well, that is enough for now. Perhaps you are getting the picture :-). Unlike myself, you may wish to retire in disgust. But I am on a mission and will pursue it to the bitter end.

 

 

Musikone

(more than you bargained for, no doubt)

 

1/8/2008 7:34:24 PM

 

I never got a response in my e-mail that you had responded!

 

Hi Musikone,

 

Thank you very much for your reply. It was very interesting. From what I have heard, approx CD quality for an mp3 file is 320 kbps --- Do you agree?

 

Yes I listen to KUAT, but it is a pretty "serious" classical station. I listen to KFUO in St. Louis but the stream is like 32 kbps.

 

I know in Europe they think all streaming should be 196 kbps or greater.

 

Could you point me to a source of information?

 

If FM broadcast is @ 1000 kbps equivalent (I realize it is analog) or better, what is HD Fm broadcast?

 

Would you be able to point me to a site or source that talked about the quality of FM and or HD quality signals?

 

Thanks, Ed

[musikone]

12/25/2007 9:50:36 AM

 

 

Hi Musikone,

 

Thank you very much for your reply. It was very interesting. From what I have heard, approx CD quality for an mp3 file is 320 kbps --- Do you agree?

 

Yes I listen to KUAT, but it is a pretty "serious" classical station. I listen to KFUO in St. Louis but the stream is like 32 kbps.

1 ==========

I am very serious about classical music, and would never consider listening to a station streaming at 32 kbps!

1 ==========

I know in Europe they think all streaming should be 196 kbps or greater.

2 ==========

This is because Europeans know something about high-quality audio reproduction.

In contrast, with very few exceptions, Americans generally do not understand nor appreciate classical music, which by its very nature demands "high-fidelity" reproduction in order to be meaningful, as opposed to something to provide a background mood.

2 ==========

Could you point me to a source of information?

3 ==========

No

3 ==========

If FM broadcast is @ 1000 kbps equivalent (I realize it is analog) or better, what is HD Fm broadcast?

4 ==========

HD does _not_ mean "high definition"! As far as this discussion is concerned, it is the same as plain old FM. Incidentally, although I mentioned 1000 kbps, the bit rate of a .wav file on a CD is roughly 1400 kbps. However, one is not going to be able to hear the difference between an uncompressed .wav file and a slightly compressed file at a bit rate of 1000 kbps.

4 ==========

Would you be able to point me to a site or source that talked about the quality of FM and or HD quality signals?

5 ==========

No. I would suggest that you do a Google search for "hd radio". You will probably get enough answers to keep you busy for a very long time. You will also learn the meaning of "HD" applied to a broadcast signal.

 

 

Musikone

5 ==========

 

Thanks, Ed

[ED7985]

12/25/2007 9:50:36 AM

 

 

Hi Musikone,

 

Thank you very much for your reply. It was very interesting. From what I have heard, approx CD quality for an mp3 file is 320 kbps --- Do you agree?

 

Yes I listen to KUAT, but it is a pretty "serious" classical station. I listen to KFUO in St. Louis but the stream is like 32 kbps.

1 ==========

I am very serious about classical music, and would never consider listening to a station streaming at 32 kbps!

1 ==========

I know in Europe they think all streaming should be 196 kbps or greater.

2 ==========

This is because Europeans know something about high-quality audio reproduction.

In contrast, with very few exceptions, Americans generally do not understand nor appreciate classical music, which by its very nature demands "high-fidelity" reproduction in order to be meaningful, as opposed to something to provide a background mood.

2 ==========

Could you point me to a source of information?

3 ==========

No

3 ==========

If FM broadcast is @ 1000 kbps equivalent (I realize it is analog) or better, what is HD Fm broadcast?

4 ==========

HD does _not_ mean "high definition"! As far as this discussion is concerned, it is the same as plain old FM. Incidentally, although I mentioned 1000 kbps, the bit rate of a .wav file on a CD is roughly 1400 kbps. However, one is not going to be able to hear the difference between an uncompressed .wav file and a slightly compressed file at a bit rate of 1000 kbps.

4 ==========

Would you be able to point me to a site or source that talked about the quality of FM and or HD quality signals?

5 ==========

No. I would suggest that you do a Google search for "hd radio". You will probably get enough answers to keep you busy for a very long time. You will also learn the meaning of "HD" applied to a broadcast signal.

 

 

Musikone

5 ==========

 

Thanks, Ed

[kk2002]

You can tune in to HQ round-the-clock classical broadcasts via Internet in several European countries. One of the finest and most reliable is Radio D-Dur in the Czech Republic. Try the OGG 256kB or WMA 196kB channel at

http://www.rozhlas.cz/d-dur/english

 

From Holland there's even a (mostly) classical channel in 5.1 surround sound at an amazing 384kB:

mms://livemedia.omroep.nl/concertzender-5channel

as well as five 2-channel classical stations (baroque, classic, contemporary, jazz and non-European) in very fine 128kB quality.

 

HQ classical transmissions are also available from Belgium (musiq3), Austria (Radio Stephansdom), Hungary (Bartók Radio) and Norway (Alltids Klassisk), all of which offer better quality sound than FM or cable radio. Reason: there's no high-frequency cut-off (FM tapers off around 12 kHz, sometimes even lower) and there's no need to limit the dynamic range (most FM transmitters do this to prevent distortion). Turn on a VU-meter on your computer and you'll see that on a FM broadcast, "silence" comes over at around -30dB. With online radio, the same "silence" usually clocks in at -60dB or even lower.

 

Musikone is right (as ever): anything below 128kB is less than CD quality, and doesn't really come into consideration for classical music. Also, the quality of compression varies widely. I have listed the stations that, imho, offer the best quality sound. ogg usually sounds better than mp3 (on line, at least). wma, which is much used, is good too. Real Audio is widespread (the BBC uses it exclusively, for example), but cannot compete for sound quality with the ones I have mentioned.

 

Navigating the home pages is an art in itself, but many stations offer at least an overview page in English.

 

For further URLs, go to

http://delicast.com

which offers a worldwide overview of all genres of online radio and podcasts, also of online TV.

[musikone]

You can tune in to HQ round-the-clock classical broadcasts via Internet in several European countries. One of the finest and most reliable is Radio D-Dur in the Czech Republic. Try the OGG 256kB or WMA 196kB channel at

http://www.rozhlas.cz/d-dur/english

1 ------------------------------

I am currently checking out Radio D-Dur; from what I have seen thus far, it appears to be the finest classical music radio station on this planet! Unfortunately, however, I do not speak the Czech language; decrypting the programming and musical programming is not easy, even though my educational background, linguistic aptitude, and musical knowledge are proving to be very helpful. I wish that this operation would publish the musical program schedule in English, if not also the time zone translations for key cities around the world.

 

My continuing effort in my research with internet classical music radio is the recording of an internet stream over a time span of perhaps 5-8 hours. I then split up this large file using (to name one) an editor such as WavePad (I own the Master's edition). I include with each selection some commentary about the piece. At the very minimum, this description includes the composer, the name of the piece, and identifies the performers. Beyond this, I sometimes include other interesting information.

 

However, it is very difficult to do this when I do not speak the language used by the radio commentator. Although I can often recognize classical compositions simply by listening, I would much prefer to have a comprehensive programming schedule available (in English), such as is published by radio stations KUSC and the syndicated NPR network called "Classical 24," which seems to crop up in internet streams all over the USA, and with which I am not enchanted, since they are amateurs and rather inept and clumsy in their procedures and "knowledge" about classical music. So much so, in fact, that I refer to their operation as the "MPR Garbage Can" (MPR stands for Minnesota Public Radio, the source of this stuff).

 

I recorded the 256 kbps ogg stream for about one hour as a test, but the ogg decoder which is furnished as a plug-in by NCH does not work (at least for me), for reasons unknown. Perhaps NCH can explain this, although I doubt it. I then tried the 192 kbps WMA, which I find to be more than "satisfactory."

 

And finally, for anyone who may be interested in recording the internet stream (if his/her recording program can utilize the information in this form), here is the recording URL (just in case you didn't guess it) for doing this:

 

http://www.rozhlas.cz/audio/download/croddur-192.asx

1 ------------------------------

From Holland there's even a (mostly) classical channel in 5.1 surround sound at an amazing 384kB:

mms://livemedia.omroep.nl/concertzender-5channel

2 ------------------------------

I listened to a fair amount of this but was not impressed with the _musical content_, even though the reproduction quality is superb. So I doubt that I will do anything further with this particular source, which appears to be a showcase experiment in the capability of online music delivery. So be it.

2 ------------------------------

as well as five 2-channel classical stations (baroque, classic, contemporary, jazz and non-European) in very fine 128kB quality.

3 ------------------------------

I have not listened to any of these other stations from the Netherlands.

3 ------------------------------

HQ classical transmissions are also available from Belgium (musiq3), Austria (Radio Stephansdom), Hungary (Bartók Radio) and Norway (Alltids Klassisk),

4 ------------------------------

I listened to Musiq3 from Belgium, which is an excellent source of classical music. HOWEVER, I could not find a way to record it, short of recording the output from my computer's sound card. Although I can do this, I do not like to use this approach, since I like to record several stations simultaneously using special software which permits this and has several other desirable features, including a URL finder which gave me the recording URL for Radio D-Dur that I mentioned above. This URL finder unfortunately does not work for Musiq3. If you have a _recording URL_ for this radio station, I would be very happy to have it...

 

I also listened to Bartok Radio 4, which is excellent. There is a 256 kbps recording URL (actually an archive):

 

http://212.92.28.75/bartok4.m3u

 

There is also a 128 kbps recording URL (again an archive) for Bartok Radio 3:

 

http://212.92.28.75/bartok3.m3u

 

I could not find any recording URL for (Norway) Alltids Klassisk, or for (Austria) Radio Stephansdom.

Do you have something?

4 ------------------------------

all of which offer better quality sound than FM or cable radio. Reason: there's no high-frequency cut-off (FM tapers off around 12 kHz, sometimes even lower)

5 ------------------------------

I am unaware of any such "limitation" in the Frequency Modulation process. This sounds strange to me. Do you have any reliable technical reference that explains what this is about? Although I have not been involved in the design of FM systems, I have difficulty accepting this, since I can see no reason for it. Are you _sure_ that this is not an "old wive's tale"?

5 ------------------------------

and there's no need to limit the dynamic range (most FM transmitters do this to prevent distortion). Turn on a VU-meter on your computer and you'll see that on a FM broadcast, "silence" comes over at around -30dB. With online radio, the same "silence" usually clocks in at -60dB or even lower.

6 ------------------------------

I agree that limiting the dynamic range is very destructive to the quality of an audio signal. I see this regularly in internet streams from the United States that I have been researching. One classical music _recording_ internet stream (an archive) which I find to be free of this sort of thing is that from station KUAT at the University of Arizona in Tucson. This is a new URL; it changed at the beginning of the year.

 

http://media.azpm.org/radio/m3u/classical128.m3u

6 ------------------------------

Musikone is right (as ever):

7 ------------------------------

You noticed :-)

7 ------------------------------

anything below 128kB is less than CD quality, and doesn't really come into consideration for classical music. Also, the quality of compression varies widely. I have listed the stations that, imho, offer the best quality sound. ogg usually sounds better than mp3 (on line, at least). wma, which is much used, is good too. Real Audio is widespread (the BBC uses it exclusively, for example), but cannot compete for sound quality with the ones I have mentioned.

8 ------------------------------

I dislike Real Audio intensely, due primarily to the excessive hype and commercialism associated with it. It is a Real pain in the neck. However, I know of nothing inherently inferior about the sound quality. In fact, the best sound quality that I have found in the United States comes through Real Audio, from the web site at http://kamu.tamu.edu, with a recording URL of http://slipstream.tamu.edu:8000/listen.pls. This is an internet stream at 192 kbps and there is nothing inferior about the sound quality. Your statement seems to imply that there is something inherently inferior in the sound quality of an internet stream which is delivered via Real Audio.

8 ------------------------------

Navigating the home pages is an art in itself, but many stations offer at least an overview page in English.

9 ------------------------------

True enough. As I have explained previously, the language barrier is a serious impediment to me. I have not found an overview page in English to be of much use in ameliorating the difficulty.

9 ------------------------------

For further URLs, go to

http://delicast.com

which offers a worldwide overview of all genres of online radio and podcasts, also of online TV.

10 -----------------------------

Musiq3 from Belgium comes to the listener via Delicast, rather than being available from the station's own web site, which is what I would much prefer, along the model of the large and detailed Radio D-Dur. There is no comparison between the two. I have not yet explored Delicast (which is simply a "facilitator") sufficiently to make a judgment about it, although it provides a useful overview of what is out there.

 

Thank you, kk2002, for your explanatory post about European classical music radio stations.

 

Musikone

10 -----------------------------

[kk2002]

>I am currently checking out Radio D-Dur; from what I have seen thus far, it appears to be the finest classical music radio station on this planet! Unfortunately, however, I do not speak the Czech language; decrypting the programming and musical programming is not easy, even though my educational background, linguistic aptitude, and musical knowledge are proving to be very helpful. I wish that this operation would publish the musical program schedule in English, if not also the time zone translations for key cities around the world.

 

Agreed, musicone, it's a barrier to international understanding, but one shouldn't look a gift- horse in the mouth! At least they offer a round-the-clock schedule (which is about 95% reliable) in which the names of the composers are the same as in other languages, and much of the rest can be figured out. In doubftul cases, an online Czech-English dictionary may help.

 

>This URL finder unfortunately does not work for Musiq3. If you have a _recording URL_ for this radio station, I would be very happy to have it...

Musiq3 has an irritating habit of changing the stream URL almost daily, can't think why. Best to go the the site and start it up from there ("écoutez en directe" at the top right-hand corner of the homepage).

 

>I also listened to Bartok Radio 4, which is excellent. There is a 256 kbps recording URL (actually an archive):

Beware: Bartók Radio often caps the connection after 30 minutes

 

I could not find any recording URL for (Norway) Alltids Klassisk, or for (Austria) Radio Stephansdom.

Do you have something?

Alltids:

mms://straumr.nrk.no/nrk_radio_alltid_klassisk_h

Stephansdom:

http://srvhost24.serverhosting.apa.net:8000/rsdstream128

Here's the trick: on the radio station's homepage, click on the "listen live" URL and copy it with Strg+c. Open VLC Media Player and select "open network stream". A dialogue box will open. Paste the URL on the bottom line, overwriting the "udp//@" that's already there. After a brief search, VLC Media Player will tune in to the station. Go to "View -> Stream and media info ->". There you will find the actual streaming URL, which you can copy and paste into the streaming software of your choice.

 

>I am unaware of any such "limitation" in the Frequency Modulation process. This sounds strange to me. Do you have any reliable technical reference that explains what this is about? Although I have not been involved in the design of FM systems, I have difficulty accepting this, since I can see no reason for it. Are you _sure_ that this is not an "old wive's tale"?

Unless you happen to live close to an original transmitter, as likely as not the FM broadcast will reach your local transmittor by HQ land-line. The frequency range on these, at least in Europe, does not allow for much over 12kHz. Almost every station also limits the dynmaic range too, for the sake of motorists etc., who woudn't hear anything at all at very low levels, and to prevent clipping at higher dynamic levels.

 

Finally a new URL to add to my list: Bayern4, the Bavarian Radio's classical music station, has just returned in HQ sound after an absence of several weeks. Its a mp3-based transmission at 192kB, 44.100Hz, offering much classical music during the day, and non-stop (except for newscasts every two hours) from midnight to 6 a.m. CET. Here's the streaming URL:

http://www.dabmon.de:8000/stream/17.mp2

 

Happy listening! kk